The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum

=> Pearls before swine......

Pearls before swine......
Posted by Tiglath (Guest) - Tuesday, October 26 2004, 15:07:29 (CEST)
from 203.173.6.5 - 203-173-6-5.dyn.iinet.net.au Australia - Windows XP - Internet Explorer
Website:
Website title:

Paul,

I come across this type of inflammatory rhetoric from time to time since we live in a university town. I don't quite understand what the agenda is of the person doing the insulting. I usually put people like this on psychotropic medicine to kind of cool off their bizarre behavior. Think I could get Tiglath to see me in my office some day.

…….If revealing to you the true sources of your religion is bizarre behaviour then I’m guilty as charged.

I don't know if "aunty christ" is the same person as Tiglath but at least we know that the religion to which "aunty christ" adheres is much different from the Christian faith. His insulting demeanor adds nothing to this forum and certainly has nothing to do with Peshitta primacy.
These two people (if they are two) seem intent on destruction. However, usually, when one person intends on destroying another person the one being destroyed is the accuser himself. Paul, what do you think their primary purpose is here? If it has nothing to with Peshitta primacy I would ask that you allow me to delete their posts.

……….I would be afraid as well if my entire life’s work and beliefs were revealed for the cheap imitation they so clearly are.

These silly posts which Tiglath have typed reveal a rather shallow academic ability at research. For the record let me elaborate on some important facts. Ishtar was a "goddess" worshipped in Western Asia by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Sumerians, and Akkadians beginning in ~3000 B.C. According to legend she fell in love with the Sumerian King Gilgamesh but he refused to be her consort so she killed his best friend. Are there any Biblical stories to which this reminds you? Me neither.

………You are referring to the Epic of Gilgamesh of course where she was spurned by Gilgamesh and placed a curse on Enkidu. What I am referring to is the famous ‘Descent of Ishtar’
Sorry but you must have taken that version from


Ishtar's son, Tammuz (that's right Tammuz was her son), is murdered by his own mother because he brings life to earth (each year). Remind you of anything Biblical? Me neither
As a result of Tammuz's death everything on earth dies and Ishtar asks her sister, Allatu (goddess of the underworld), to allow him to come back to life. Allatu complies but Tammuz is allowed to return for only half a year, each year. Remind you of the resurrection? Me neither.

Tammuz was Ishtar's son, brother, and husband. He was the god of the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers. Sound like Jesus? Me neither
………..When did I ever claim that you sounded like Jesus?

People sacrificed animals to her and prayed to her in the temples. This does sound similar to the Jewish faith in their worship of YHWH. Big deal.
………Hehehe……keep going…...you’re getting warmer.

Let me address some of Tiglath’s posts.
He said “The entire Judeo-Christian religion is based on ancient Mesopotamian religion, culture and holidays.”
Me-The “entire” Judeo-Christian is based on ancient Mesopotamian religion, culture, and holidays? Come on Tiglath, the entire Jewish faith and the entire Christian faith is based on what the Ancient Mesopotamians believed? You know better than that. Exactly which religion in ancient Mesopotamia spoke in tongues like the original Christians did?

…….According to p. 88-89 of Myths of Enki, the Crafty God by Samuel Noah Kramer, “It is Enki who, for reasons that are not made entirely clear, sets up “contention,” in the speech of humankind and brings the Golden Age to an end.”

Enki, en of hegal
The one with the unfailing words,
en of cunning,
the shrewd one of the land,
sage of the Gods,
gifted in thinking,
the en of Eridu,
change the speech of their mouths,
he having set up contention in it,
in the human speech that had been one.
(The Nam-Shub of Enki, Tablet 1, Lines 15-20)


Which religion in ancient Mesopotamia practiced worshipping a resurrected God who was crucified on a cross? You know none did. Crucifixion was a Roman (or perhaps a Phoenician or Persian) invention beginning in ~500BC, long after the worship of Ishtar began. Tiglath which ancient Mesopotamians practiced execution by crucifixion? Is this one fact (fact, not myth) enough to unhinge your silly premise?

………The cross by the way is another symbol stolen from us. It symbolised our God Shamash just as the crescent moon symbolised our God Sin and was adopted by Islam. Here’s a photo of our God-King Ashurnasirpal II paying homage to our true Gods. (http://www.betnahrain.org/Gallery/Ancient_Assyrian_Art/A_image/42_Shamshi.JPG)You can
……Is there nothing original you guys came up with?

Tiglath continues-
One myth the Ishtar and Tammuz love story is enough to unhinge your shaky religion.
Here's a sum-up of what you will no doubt choose to ignore.
1. Spring Equinox (March 21st) = Resurrection of Ishtar and Tammuz from the netherworld. Sacred Marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz where the semi-divine King representative of the God Ashur/Marduk conducts Heiros Gamos with the virgin High priestess and representative of Ishtar.
Christian version Jesus' resurrection from the dead.
Me-The facts surrounding Ishtar and Tammuz are confusing and at times contradictory. As I stated above Tammuz was Ishtar’s brother, son, and husband.
……….I think you mean the father, son and the holy spirit. Whoops another co-inky dink!

Resurrection is a rather unusual choice of a word to describe the facts surrounding Tammuz’ death and rebirth. You will no doubt want to reread paragraph 6 above. What you describe as a “resurrection” apparently occurred every single year. You might want to read Hebrews 10:10-14 which speaks of a single death “once for all” by Jesus. Furthermore Acts 13:34 intimidates that He would never die again, unlike Tammuz.

………….Why would I read the plagiarised version of our original myths. Do you own an imitation Rolex and then brag about how accurate it gives time as well?
……..Also the concept of Baptism was practised during the Death of Tammuz ritual. The dying God was splashed with the waters of life to ensure his and Ishtar’s safe passage and resurrection during the Spring Equinox around March 21st during the Easter……I mean Ishtar holiday.


2. Summer Solstice (June 21st) =Death of Tammuz (Weeping for the dying vegetation God Tammuz)
Jewish version wailing wall. (Ezekiel 8:14)
Christian version Noosardel (sprinkling water on the path of God) a water festival as well as baptism symbolizing new life and rebirth.
Me- You may want to reread the account in Ezekiel a little more closely. God was pointing out to Ezekiel that since the worship of the Creator was replaced by the worship of the cycles of creation (like that which was ascribed to Tammuz) then Ezekiel would see even more detestable things (see Ezekiel 8:6, 13).
Let me explain some facts here. The apparent death of all vegetation in the Middle East during the hot dry summer months was explained in mythology as caused by Tammuz’s death and descent into the underworld. During that time his followers would weep and mourn his death, like this lady in Ezekiel 8:14. In the spring Tammuz would emerge victoriously from the underworld and bring with him the life giving rain.

………Ritual mourning was performed in Babylon during the same month that bears his name and the Jews of course adopted, Tammuz. He was the consort of Ishtar and was also adopted and renamed to Adonis by the Greeks and placed in the Greek pantheon. Beginning with the summer solstice, it was a time of mourning in ancient times: the Babylonians marked the decline in daylight hours with a six-day "funeral" for the god (see Ezekiel 8:14).

……….A mourning ritual at this time of year appears throughout the Semitic world: Muslim Shia in Iraq and elsewhere, the mourning of Imam Hussain, son of Imam Ali every year in the Day of Aashurah are also derived from the mourning of Tammuz.
Jews have a morning ritual at this time also, mourning for the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the famous Wailing Wall are all derived from the mourning for Tammuz. Tammuz 17 is the Jewish fast day, marking the start of a three week period of mourning that culminates in Ab 9, the traditional date of the Temple's destruction in 586 BC and again in 70.

3. Sacred marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz (Sumerian signified time of ploughing) was later moved to March 21st in order for the offspring of Ishtar and Tammuz to be born 9 months later during the birth of Tammuz (Dec 21st.)
Me- The significance of this escapes me.
……….Only hot air escapes you. I’ll try and keep it simple for you.
The Sumerian sacred marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz which saw the King and the sacred virgin high priestess of Ishtar conduct Heiros Gamos during the Autumn Equinox (Sept. 21st) was deliberately changed by the Babylonians to the Spring Equinox in order for the High Priestess to conceive and give birth to a God and King during the Winter Solstice (Dec. 21st.) It was done for the purpose of giving birth to a God.
This divine God-King was then sacred and could not be overthrown without using some mythical story to explain the usurper’s succession to the throne. That explains why King Sargon adopted the story of being floated down a river after being born to the virgin High Priestess of Ishtar. The story implies an immaculate conception. The same story adopted by Moses and later on by Jesus to explain their births and claims to divinity.


4. Winter Solstice (December 21st.) The Birth of Tammuz. Born to the mother, lover, sister and virgin Ishtar. A sacred Tammuz tree is taken from the forest on 21st December and decorated with gold and silver.
Christian version Xmas and the birth of Jesus to the Virgin Mary.
Me- I assume Tiglath is trying to relate the idea that Tammuz was born close to December 25. Obviously, Jesus wasn’t born on December 25, the pagan origins of that date are without dispute.
……….Should you be calling the very foundation of your plagiarised religion Pagan? How stupid does that make you look for continuing to celebrate with Ishtar Eggs and Tammuz Trees to this very day?

I don’t know a single adult Christian who believes that Jesus was born on December 25. This just proves the pagan origins of the original holiday of Christmas. Let me say for my friends out there that I still celebrate December 25 as Christmas not because of it’s pagan origins but because of what the holiday has evolved to become. This is a side issue, not worth discussing.
………Why is this a side issue? Why is this not worthy of discussion? I’d bury my head in the sand if I was you too. This is the very foundation of your plagiarised religion. You should analyse and see if my arguments are genuine. I challenge you, Paul and all these so-called scholars to confront all of these “side-issues.”


Me still- Tiglath may want to read Jeremiah 10:3 in which Jeremiah clearly states that the worship of a “sacred” tree is “vain”. Paul, do you worship your tree? Neither do I.
……..So it’s another “co-incidence” that you place your Tammuz tree in the middle of your living room and placing atop of it an eight pointed star of Ishtar and decorating it with gold and silver in the same tradition as Jeremiah 10:3-4 which desribes how the Birth of Tammuz was celebrated in ancient Babylon , "..for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax; They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."


So you see it's actually me that is insulted when plagiarists took our ancient myths, epics and culture for their own and then have the nerve to call the immaculately conceived King Sargon a bastard and the son of a whore.
Me- Did anyone on this forum ever called King Sargon a bastard and the son of a whore prior to your initial inflammatory rhetoric? Anyone? Tiglath, I doubt if anyone had ever called Sargon these names to insult you. This sounds like embellishment.
…..http://www.insideassyria.com/rkvsf3/wwwboard/msgs/Have_no_fear_Sargon_is_here-Ehvw.html in which Paul states, “In addition, Sargon's unknown father indicates he was a bastard, which is not paralleled in the Exodus story of Moses.”

My question remains either King Sargon and Jesus are bastards and the sons of whores OR King Sargon and Jesus were both immaculately conceived and born to virgins following in the tradition of the Ishtar Tammuz myth.
Me- There is really no logical evidence that Sargon was conceived by a virgin. There are many more reasons to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus though. As usual I would like to start with facts. Jesus was not “immaculately conceived and born to (a) virgin following the tradition of Ishtar Tammuz myth”. The first mention of a virgin birth predated the Ishtar myth. In Genesis 3:15 we find that the word for “seed” is “zera” and means among other things “semen”. Tiglath, I want you to trust me now, I paid attention in 3rd grade health, so please trust me on this one. Women do not make “semen”. I’m begging you to believe me. If you don’t I’d ask that you check with your wife, if you even have one. OK, since no woman has “sperm” unless it is placed in her then it is impossible for this verse to come true, without divine intervention. The only way a woman would have “seed” would be if it were placed in her. We place this in our wives (some more frequently than others, now I‘m talking about you Paul, you lucky devil) but there is nothing implicit in this verse to assume that any semen in Eve was anyone other than Adam’s. Tiglath can you think of any woman who might fulfill the prophecy of this verse?
Let’s see, the person must be a female. She must have seed placed in her which she can call her own; after all it says “"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel." This “seed” of this woman will be a male (the pronoun “his” is present) and He well “bruise” Satan’s head. Anyone in history Tiglath? Anyone? Sargon? Nope. Hercules? Sorry. Confucius? Good one. Ok, this prophecy predates every single virgin birth whether Sargon, Hercules, or Confucius. As our “Guest” said “My answer to that is simply that Satan loves to counterfeit the truth with examples that look superficially the same in the quest to sow confusion or have man make the wrong choice.”
Tiglath, you really should keep in mind how silly it is to believe in the perpetual virginity of this women (Ishtar); after all she was the goddess of sex. She loved sex and engaged in this activity outside of marriage numerous times. Exactly how would you define a whore Tiglath? It seems that Mary either remained a virgin until her death (Paul’s belief) or she remained faithful to her husband until his death (my belief). Either way, Mary was not a whore. Again, what is your definition of a whore?

……..Oh my Ashur!……………you actually believe that Genesis predated the Ishtar and Tammuz myth. Next thing you’ll tell me is that Noah predated Naphushtim. I do not have time to debate basics like the earth is round with “scholars” of your calibre.

Ishtar “renewed” her virginity yearly by bading in a lake while two musicians play. She’s a virgin in name only. Kind of like John Kerry claiming to be a conservative at times. He can claim anything he wants but facts are a funny thing. You can claim Ishtar is anything you want but facts are just those sticky wickets that get in the way of logic. Darn those facts.

……….Well then by your own logic then Mary was a whore who fucked someone else other than Joseph and then ran away from home to give birth in Bethlehem.


How about a “bastard”? My understanding of the definition of the word is that this is a child born out of wedlock. Weren’t Joseph and Mary married at the time of the birth? Here is Webster’s (1913) definition “a child begotten and born out of wedlock; an illegitimate child; one born of an illicit union.” Which one of those definitions applies to Jesus?

………The Jesus myth was following in the footsteps of Ishtar and Tammuz. Copying their superiors was the Jewish plagiarists’ way of bestowing him with divinity and making him a God-King like his Assyrian betters.

Was He begotten and born out of wedlock? Sorry. Was Jesus an illegitimate child? Sorry read Luke 2:5. They were married but Joseph had not consummated the marriage. Was Jesus born of an illicit union? Nope. Now go back and ask those same three questions with relation to Sargon. Sorry Tiglath!

……….Seeing as how you continue to slander my Gods I will use your own logic to restate that either King Sargon and Jesus Christ were both bastards born to whores, OR King Sargon was the antecedent for the immaculate conception and was using the story to gain divinity and secure his kingship which he took by force.


I would offer this piece of advice. If all you want to do is insult and not engage in serious debate move to Boston, hold another Democratic Convention, and take the platform. However, if you are interested in legitimate answers to these, ages old, questions then change your attitude and engage us in discussion not arguments.

………It was you Judeo-Christians who bit the hand that fed your shallow myopic religion in the first place. Being an Assyrian I am willing to not call Jesus a bastard and Mary a whore once you apologise for mislabelling my Holy Gods King Sargon and his mother the virgin Ishtar a whore.

Keith
Last edited by Keith on Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
…..Forgive them Ashur they know not what they do!



---------------------


The full topic:



Content-length: 19201
Content-type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, applicatio...
Accept-encoding: gzip, deflate
Accept-language: en-au
Cache-control: no-cache
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: *hidded*
Host: www.insideassyria.com
Referer: http://www.insideassyria.com/rkvsf3/rkvsf_core.php?.VWYq.
User-agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)



Powered by RedKernel V.S. Forum 1.2.b9