The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Maggie replies...while blocking all replies to her...contd

Re: Maggie replies...while blocking all replies to her...contd
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Thursday, October 4 2007, 20:50:39 (CEST)
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Ashur wrote:
"A case in point , when the Turkish leader Atatürk/ Mustache Kemal was fighting the Italians, one Egyptian poet by name ' Ahmad SHOWQI' said :

O' khlaed* of the TURKS , revive the Khaled of the Arabs !

You see that he is looking to MUSTAPHA KAMAL as a MUSLIM leader than a TURKISH!

Pincho-"..the way you people use "Arab" is also not a national designation...only the people of Saudi Arabia belong to an Arab nation...Egyptians belong to the nation of Egypt etc."

hhhhhhhhhhh, let ANY scholar in the world come out with a book that says, "he Arab League of nations are NOT Arab nations," then we will talk and deal with your nonsense.

...so, you have uses for some scholars...when you think they back you up. Of course they are "Arab" nations...because they also have teritory they control...you have none. That is one of the requisites to being a "nation"...unless you use the word in its archaic form meaning "tribe"...like Apache Nation. WWhen they get their lanmd back...than come asking for yours.

Ashur wrote:
"Khaled: Is the Arab Islamic leader who conquered Iraq and Syria in the middle of the seventh century A.D. In any event , if Dr. Joseph can't ignore the ancient Assyrians , then the question to be asked is he should explain then what happened to such ASSYRIANS ?"

Pincho-"...He doesn't ignore them...he is very knowledgeable on the subject but it is NOT his area of perofessional or academic expertise."

EXACTLY, nor is it ANYONE's area of expertise,

..it is indeed his area of experise...as his degree is in Middle Eastern History...with his own emphasis on the Nestorians and other Christian sects...he has a fully detailed bibliography and his training as a scholar, something you and I so clearly lack, gives him sound basis to explore an area that has been of little interest to other scholar historians...for which we should be grateful and not carry on like fishwives.

which is why NO ONE other than a Nestorian like Dr. Joseph would write such nonsense, because no Historian or Sociologist or any other scientist can make such statements as Dr. Josepho has, based on some missionary contacts! It is tragic indeed!

..it is not tragic at all but very gratifying to see a man with his academic discipline and resources, with his contacts among the professionals in his field, stake out this obscure territory and shed some much needed light where all has been a muddle of battling grandmothers and priests.

Pincho-"He is presenting documents and papers and sources which show how the pope invented modern Chaldeans in the 17th century..something ALL you modern Assyrians admit, with great joy too. You're just shocked and pissed when the same evidence can be presented to show that modern Assyrians were also invented, though later and by different Europeans."

ABSOLUTE nonsense! The modern Chaldean do NOT live in Babylon or Chaldea but live in the heart of NINEVEH!

...there are no modern Chaldeans...ask most modern Assyrians and they will gladly tell you the pope invented modern Chaldeans in the 17th century...of course you'll just call them ignorant low-life traitors...but this is common knowledge and the response of most modern Assyrians...they KNOW it was fraud and hocus pocus that created modern Chaldeans out of Nestorians...we all know it. That was the point...not where they live. The follwoing point is that the same act of creation was behind the sudden emergence of Ashuraye where for centuries as far back as we remeber there were only Suraye...regardless of where they live.

Which means they are Assyrians, because ONLY Assyrians lived in Nineveh of old and of today!

....many many people lived in what was Nineveh..afgter the fall. Jews, Persians, Greeks, Arabs and others moved into, across, settled in and were born there...in the "land of" the ancient Assyrians...didn't make them lineal descendants of Ashurbanipal.


When they move to "Chaldea" then they can be considered Chaldeans. Until then, let them shut their mouths until they PROVE they are Chaldeans of old and show us where Chaldea is today. The Assyrians do not have to prove who they are, because they still live in Nineveh, even today, just the way did thousands of years ago!

...according to you everyone should shut their mouths so you can be heard.

Pincho-"...what "happened" to the ancient Assyrians is the same thing that happened to the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and Celts and people of Gual and Albion. When you people laugh at the ridiculous notion that the Assyrians were "all wiped out"...you should ask yourselves why then you believe att the Sumerians, or Kassites, or Amorites were wiped out?"

Which Assyrian has EVER said that the Sumerians, the Babylonians, the Amorites disappeared? NO ONE! They were integrated into the Assyrian empire and became citizens of Assyria, just the way all the immigrant nationalities of the world were integrated into the United States of America and became Americans.

..in the same way the remaining Assyrians were integrated into the Greek, Parthian, Sasanian and Aram empires that came next, along with the Babylonians etc. Nut the consciouness of being Sumerian was replaced by the reality of being Assyrian or babylonian...and that was replaced by the consciousness of being Greek, Persian and Arab in turn..all we're talking about is the attempt of a Christian minority to distinguish itself and make up for their second-class status as a religious minority...that's all that's behiond this creaming insistance that you are really ASSYRIANS.

"Else, where are they today. Dr Joseph and others have clearly shown in what sense the ancients "disappeared" and that is because they forgot their native language and with it their history and sense of identity..as you ALL warn your children NOT to do by forgetting Aramaic..which isn't even ASSYRIAN. But the point is well made that you, yourselves, consider a person as "lost" to his roots if he forgets his LANGUAGE. Why do you all say this? It must be because you consider language the key to your "ethnic" identity...why then can you not see that when the Assyrians gave up on their native Akkadian language, the same thing happened to them that you warn your children will happen to them if THEY forget their language? Only in thats ense did the Assyrians 'disappear"..the PEOPLE remained, of course..but the conscious IDENTITY was lost."

First of all, there's no Aramaic without Akkadian. Aramaic directly came from the Akkadian language,

..that is bunk. The Arameans fought the Assyrians for 300 years...they did not get their language from the Assyrians...according to you everything HAS to come from you. The language entered and replaced Assyrian when the Assyrians lost their military might...the Akkadian language became a dead language because it was ABANDONED by the Assyrians...as most modern Assyrians consider their Aramaic tongue a dead and useless language in the West...as you all lament because it means they will "FORGET" their culture and history...remember? Next thing you'll say is that English would have been impossible without Akkadian and that therefor to speak English instead of Aramaic MAKES YOU ASSYRIAN.

and in time, the Aramaic dialect became easier to use among ordinary citizens, especially when interacting with deported nations into Assyria.

...Arameans weren't imported into Assyria until close to the end of Empire.

The Akkadian language did not disappear, or because the Assyrians abandoned it willingly, but because a natural evolution came about due to Assyrian kings declaring the Aramaic dialect to bring commonality to an entire empire.

..you have no evidence for any of this except those same "writers" who butter you up one side and down another..these are YOUR explanations to cover your bare arguments...arguments which can ONLY stand when you're free to shout at people, call them name and shut down debate...do everything else but leave debate open and free and we'll see how long you can go without a hissy fit that will send you ape shit.

The same phenomenon is happening in northern Iraq right now. Leeshana Swadaya is becoming nearly extinct because the people living in that region have been Arabized. Listen to Ishtar TV and you will not understand every word the Assyrians there speak, unless you understand Arabic. You will only understand one in five Assyrian words. It is a natural evolution because of the Arabization process in the last 70 years.

...the language is not that of the Assyrians...and as you are all quick to warn..."if you forget your language you forget your history"...you all say this and believe it too when you're warning people not to forget Aramaic...without realizing that you've just made the best argument you could for the fact that in forgetting Akkadian, no matter what it was replaced by, meant the people forgot THEIR hisotyr.,..their hisotry as Assyrians. As usual, from your own words and actions come all the weapons anyone would need to "destroy" you.

Pincho-"..You have ALL said, over and over, that modern Chaldeans are a fraud...you have said they have no "nation" AND...never did! YOU deny their "nationality" as well as their legitimacy."

Because they are living in Nineveh, the Assyrian capital, not Babylon, the capital of the ancient Chaldean dynasty. Hence, they are Assyrians by nationality. There is no city of Nistoria, and never has been, so that the IMBECILE Dr. Joseph or anyone else can compare our situation to the modern Chaldeans! They are a religious invention by the Pope! Modern Assyrians can be identified by their historical lands even today, whereas Chaldeans cannot because they are living in Nineveh. Got it? That's the difference!

..oh give it a rest. Who gives a shit where thye live..the point is that all good Assyrian nationalists admit that the poppe invented modern Chaldeans.,.,.wherever they lived...they were a modern invention of the Euros...it was indeed where they lived that made the Nestoprian into modern Assyrians...they received this designation from the Euros who dug the ground beneath them...it's that silly and that simple.

Pincho-"..but refuse to see the same scam was pulled on you. You point out where and when and how Europeans invented modern Chaldeans but REFUSE to admit to the tons of evidence that shows Europeans did the same with you."

Then pray tell us where is Nestoria? and you will win your lame argument.

...it was always a religious name for a heterical sect...the people belonged to the EMPIRES, not nations, which conquered them. And the first nation any of them belonged to was the Iraqi nation.

Pincho-..."You're pissed and shocked to discover the truth of those words that he who lives in a glass Assyria shouldn't throw stones at a Chaldea made of smoke and mirrors. In all the "prooves" that you, when you were a full blown volacano and not just a blowhard, Aprim, Jassim and so many more "nationalists" gave...all the times you demended ONE document proving modern Chaldeans were for real, all the times you pointed to the Europeans from Rome who invented modern Chaldeans, that all those times and with all that smugness you were merely showing how weak and similar was your own argument for being modern Assyrians."

BULL! The argument is not the same, because there's still a Nineveh, with Ninevites STILL living there as proof! Where's Chaldea? Go hire an Archaeologist to find you Chaldea, and then come back to us.

...there is still a Rome...but the Romans living there have no connection to Julius Caesar. Boy...what a lot of money you're wasting on that education of yopur's...I notice that youu too steer clear of any advanced degrees in history.

"...You are not an Assyrian nation because you are neither. You are Christians who already HAVE nations...except that when they are Muslim nations you refuse to show loyalty or patriotism or love of nation...things you are happy to give to the Christian nations you run to and who are the chief people in the world destroying your own "beloved" homeland."

The mere fact that we have NEVER stopped fighting for our ancient land, (Nineveh) proves we are Assyrians. Show me ONE document where the Chaldeans have fought for Chaldea, just ONE!

..you have never FOUGHT for your anything. What fighting"? Are you nuts? You call screaming at each other fighting? Well, why not when you've got your own weird defintions of everything else...sure, go on fighting.

Ashur wrote:
"As far as I know , he never bothered himself to do that, because he is an agent PAID to destroy and tarnish the ASSYRIAN history only, to be in forefront of those who attack the Assyrian nation TO BE USED as a reference to them !"

Pincho-"...there is no evidence anywhere for thewse claims of your's. It's odd that a man not "ignorant" will ignore the scholarship behind Dr Joseph's book while making wild statements, as if they were facts, that Dr Joseph is paid to destroy you and your idiotic nation. Where is your scholarly, or any proof? How can you pretend to be so rigorous and concerned for facts and definitions when attacking him, while being so damn sloppy and deceitful yourself by making outrageous statements you back with nothing?"

You mean the way Dr. Joseph ignored a simple thing like Geography to distinguish between the errors of the Chaldeans and the legitimate claims of the Assyrians?

...he ignored nothing you are pointing out...it is you who've ignored his book...while you rail on about it. You missed the point, not surprisngly, to go off on a tangent...tell us WHY anyone would PAY to DESTROY you people...why? What is the fear? What the hell do you have to scare anyone with except the ability to spoil a race if you see you can't win?

Pincho-"And, once again, when will any of you give a REASON why anyone should be afraid of modern Assyrians "uniting"...or fear them at ALL! I've asked you several times and not once have you given any explanation at all."

They are afraid because they are all vying for our lands, our resources, or are you too DUNCE to realize that?

...so are the Seminole Indians...but no one is AFRAID of them. You people have never pulled anything off anywhere in tha last 200 years except get yourselves kicked from pillar to post...people who own that oil would be "afraid" as you point it, of losing to anyone...but why should they be afraid of YOU people of all things? You can't hold a picnic without finding ENEMIES made it rain and set ants among you...people are afraid of you? Give us a break. Hells bells I'm sure not "afraid".

Ashur-"In any event , I will say that the ASSYRIANISM is a continuation up to this day EXCEPT in the mind of DR. JOSEPH and all those who are the enemy of the Assyrian nation!"

Pincho-"..it is not. It exists only in your head and the heads of others like you. There is no Assyrianism whatsoever...it's just a word...a big fat hot one, like all the others you use without bothering to know what they mean."

Only a man who has never been to Assyria of today, would say such a thing, proving his own ignorance!

...there is no Assyria today...only a person who can't even read a mapo would see an Assyria...I'll bet you something...that when you filled out your documents you did not see an "Assyria" where you were asked what country yopu wished to visit...even you have enough sense to know what is real and serious from flummery...it is Iraq...and I haven't been there in years...and a flying visit by you is nothing to puff and huff over...the real point is that here, amoing all you idiots and not among Iraqis, is where the greates damage is being dome to to those people...they make NONE of these claims...it is something that makes you feel important, safe as you are in Modesto.

Ashur-"We know that in the early century of Christianity there were people proud to be Assyrians to name TATIAN the Assyrian, even there is another who was not Christian to name Lucian of Samosata ."

Pincho-...they were not Assyrians, silly. They were born in the "land of the Assyrians"...those aren't Assyrian names to begin with. People knew that area as the "land of the Assyrians"...as we know today that Arizona is the land of the Navajo...that doesn't mean that if a Greek today is born in Phoenix he IS a Navajo."

That only shows us that you know NOTHING of your own history! Assyrian kings had many wives and foreign concubines, from which they sired sons, who succeeded them as kings. They were every bit Assyrian as the sons that were sired by the Assyrian women, simply because the were born in the Land Of Ashur!

..what the hell does that have to do with anything? There were no PURE Assyrians not even back then and not at any time...big deal...it took you to point out the obvious?

Ashur wrote:-"It is essential to say that the one who revived the CHALDAEAN name were not ASSYRIANS , but the Church of ROME in order to destroy ASSYRIANISM and the Church of the East .

Pincho-"..the pope didn't go there to destroy anyone...he went because he was losing Catholics to the Protestant Reformation...and he wanted to bring the Nestorians and other heretical sects, back into the fold. No one refered to those people as Assyrians..they were known, by themselves as well, as Nesotorians...we have NEVER referred to ourselves as Asuhraye, but as Suraye...at least not until after the Euros came..just as the ones who returned to Catholicism had never refered to themselves as Chaldeans, till the Euros came..something you all admit to."

And what are Surayeh if not Ashurayeh? Suraya is a colloquial word, and Ashuraya a formal one. But they are one and the same! The people of Ashur!

..they are not. This is the slight of hand and trickery you all play at...at least you knew enough not to try the "missing A" bullshit.

Ashur-"While if the BRITONS named the people of upper MESTOPOTAMIA or ASSYRIA to be ASSYRIANS , which is a natural thing to do in order to be introduced to the WORLD AFFAIRS as a nation , they were right to see the only name GEOGRAPHICALLY and HISTORICALLY -as we stated above - fit them is the ASSYRIAN name."

Pincho-"...Henry Layard and even Rassam, went on calling the Nestorians Chaldeans."

Contradictions! On the one hand you state that it was the Europeans, i.e. Layard who named us Assyrians, and rightly so, because he found us in Assryia,

..he could have found Italians there...would that make them Assyrians?

and stole our artifacts. At that time, Rassam was called a TURK because Assyria was by then conquered by the Ottomans. Does this mean Rassam was a Turk? GET REAL!

...Jesus...you're dense. I guess it's the desperation with which you shovel bullshit. The point was that not even the people who FOUND the ancient artifacts were comfortable using the designation of Assyrians to replace CHALDEAN...which was also an invention of the Euros...that only really started with the advent of the First World War at which time even newspapers in America changed their heading from Suraye to Ashuraye...I'm dying to hear your explanation for that.

Pincho-"..not even they used this new-fangled term. What the Britons did is their business...it seems whenever you can twist something to suit your purpose, you'll gladly do so, even if it comes from the Britons whom you blame the rest of the time."

YOu are the ONLY one who twists things to suit himself, by contradicting yourself repeatedly. You have no knowledge of your own, but a parrot of the illustrious Joseph.

...nyah nyah nyah.

"..It's very simple...at no time before the Euros came did the Nestorians refer to themselves as Chaldeans and Assyrians."

In modern Assyrian georgraphy and dialect, we have ALWAYS referred to oursleves as Surayeh.

...Dr Joseph makes that point...and Suraye means Syrian...which was what the Greeks turned "Aramaic" into...and it has been turned back to Aramaic in a bibl;e published by British scholars in the 1970s...maybe we'll all go back to calling ourselves Aramaics and Suraye as Arameans...some day when all the bibles are changed.

ONLY the European missionaries refrred to us as Chaldeans and Assyrians to provide religious distinctions.

...no one used the term Assyrian to refer to the Christian sects in the 17th centuey when the pope's people arrived...they were all called Nestorians...the name Assyrian only appeared AFTER the tern Chaldean was coined and used for those Nestorians who returned to Rome.

Even the Chaldean of today call our language Sureth. What is Sureth if not Suraya/Ashuraya?

...it is Sureth...with no hint of being Asureth.

Pincho-"There is ample evidence to back this up."

The ONLY evidence is missionary sources, because they wanted to justify to the world their Christian missions in the Middle East, just the way the Roman Catholics did!

...that has nothing to do with it...they express their doubts about using the new tern of Assyrian to cover what was well knowen, by then, toi everyone there...that these people were SYRIACS when not CHALDEANS....no one mentioned the term Assyrian until after the First World War....

Ashur-"It is crystal clear that you can't name these people, ARABS, PERSIANS, TURKOMANS, Q....S and TURKISH, but they are ASSYRIANS ."

Pincho-"..they are not. They have not a single iota of evidence that can withstand the slightest examination...why do you think these points are banned from all your forums...even Maggies, she who was going to have a free and open forum...till she got overwhelmed again."

You are here aren't you? Another PROOF of your lies.

....get us a historian in Dr Joseph's field and let's talk.

"The people in question are nationals of the countries they were born in who happen to be of the Christian faith..that's all. It is you people who play fast and loose with definitions, shifting and leaping whenever one of your points is about to sink onto another one and so on."

YOurs are the only definitions that sink rapidly, because of your own contradictions.

...and you have kinky hair...is this silly enough for you?

Pincho-"...If you are refering to a national name, then you need DOCUMENTED evidence..if you mean you are ethnically Assyrian then you need a different sort of proof...and since you don't apeak the Assyrian but the Aramaic language>

There are umpteen Aramaic languages. Here's only one source: Aramaic is the ancient language of the Semitic family group, which includes the Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Arameans, Hebrews, and Arabs. In fact, a large part of the Hebrew and Arabic languages is borrowed from Aramaic, including the Alphabet. The modern Hebrew (square) script is called "Ashuri", "Ashuri" is the Hebrew name for Assyrian, the name being used to signify the ancestor of the Assyrians, Ashur the son of Shem, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:22). Aramaic is quoted in the very first book of the Bible, Berisheth (Genesis) in Chapter 31:47. In fact, many portions of the Old Testament are penned originally in Aramaic, including Daniel chapter 2:4 thru chapter 7.

...give it a rest...now you're quoting from the bible??? The fact remains...you have nothing but pop-history and what your granbdmother's told you to offer as evidence...you steer clear of scholarly sources from people whose professional field of study this is in favor of Xenophon, of all things!!! Bring ANY comprably qualified historian of MODERN Assyrians and we'll compare notes...till then you're merely repeating what pleases you, what faltters you...and this is boring.

The first known inscriptions of Aramaic date to the late tenth or early ninth century B.C. In a phenomenal wave of expansion, Aramaic spread over Palestine and Syria and large tracts of Asia and Egypt, replacing many languages, including Akkadian and Hebrew. For about one thousand years it served as the official and written language of the Near East, officially beginning with the conquests of the Assyrian Empire, which had adopted Aramaic as its official language, replacing Akkadian.

...so?

So you see Pincho, even the Jews don't speak Hebrew. so much for your defunct theories.

..if you say so.

"and since you don't practise the Assyrian but a Jewish religion...I don't think you can make an athnic case from kebobs and yoghurt. You are Christians who don't LIKE belonging to Muslim nations. That's all."

And neither do Jews or Muslims practice their ORIGINAL religion, which was the relgion of fertility, proving people's religions have NOTHING to do with their ethnic identity, just the way things were in Land of Ashur of old! ALL relgions were respected and tolerated back then, but the citizens all became Assyrians, just like all the immigrants from around the world who come here and maintain their own religions, but become Americans, just the way the American Indians are, who do not practice Christianity, but are still Americans!

...because there is a territory called America...if you had a territory named Assyria...you could validate all this. But you don't...except you happen to "see" things that don't exist. The biggest thing that trips you all up is simply that there is no Assyria....and hasn't been for millenia...end of story, unless you can argue the point. To listen to you pull history from every hair of your head is just too taxing...bring something wioth teeth in it or some professional stanbding...from real sources...and we can at least have something besides pop-history to yell about.



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