The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Old crap that's being fed to people for more than 1500 years.

Re: Old crap that's being fed to people for more than 1500 years.
Posted by AssyrianMuslim (Guest) - Saturday, January 12 2008, 23:39:20 (CET)
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MiniMe wrote:
>“I do not believe in the Old Testament as a complete book from God. The Old Testament is not the Torah which was revealed to the Prophet Moses(as).”
>
>*The old Testament and the Torah are IDENTICAL except for a couple of extra books in the Torah.

Well according to the Judeo-Christian world, the Torah consists of the first five books of the Old Testament in the Bible. They also claim that Moses(as) was the author. Most Bible scholars except for the few who receive their pay checks from the church ministry play naive but they know the deal too.

>“ Now, if you are sayong that Moses plaigarized from other writings, that is your opinion but i totally disagree with you on that a 100%.”
>
>*What I said was that the Old Testament is a corrupted copy of the religious writing of Mesopotamia. I didn’t say Moses copied it.

I agree that it is a corrupt book and it may very well be partially copied from earlier writings.

>“The authors of the Old Testament are unknown for the most parts and books were written centuries after the time of Moses(as)and he was not the author of these books but others wrote them.”
>
>“Others re-wrote what was written before them.

Yes, and those "others" were supposed to be inspred by the "holy spirit" or as they now call it "holy ghost". The question worth asking is how could it be possible to know that they were inspired by God when they are not even known and they don't even know how many authors there were all together. They struggle over this point, yet the Christian cultists are determined to shove their crap down eberyone else's throat at any cost possible.

>“ However, I would like to remind you of something. Just because something was mentioned in another ancient writing and then it appears in another religious book, that does not mean that it was copied from the former.”
>
>*What does it mean then? That others came afterwards and wrote the same thing without having read it somewhere else before?

They may have had basic knowledge prior but it would not be enough to do much. Real prophets wouldn't need to copy from prior writings and the only way anyone would do so is a false prophet.


>“Keep in mind that we (in Islam) believe in all of the Prophets from God that were sent to mankind.”
>
>*That is according to the Quran. Are you saying that the Prophet didn’t hear or read about those older prophets from anyone before the Quran was revealed to him?

He may have heard basic things like everyone else around him but it wouldn't be enough to make the Quran based from that. As for reading, no he would not have been able to read earlier writings because he could not read nor write. I be more than glad to talk more on this issue.


>“ Every nation and people in ancient times received their prophets or messengers and sometimes they received more than one. Since those prophets were sent by the One Almighty, it would only be natural that their fundementals of their teachings would be the same,”
>
>*The ONLY reason why their teaching are the same is because they learn from those before them and continue the message along the same line... (knowledge is continuous and progressive)

If that is so, then one has to explain how people who lived far and far away have a lot in common. For Example, we believe that all the religions of the world are spin offs from the original way as first given to mankind. Every prophet that came brought the same general message and that is to worship the Creator alone without any partners, to obey his laws the best possible, to pray, fast, believe in Judgement Day, etc. Now if the teachings are similar because they copied from eachother, one has to explain why the belief of the Zulu, Bantu and other African tribes far away from Middle East had the identical concept of the Creator as in Islam. Until the White man came and terrorized those people and called them "pagans" these people did not worship images and their concept of the Creator was just like Islam. You will find the same with the Aberigenes of Australia and their concept of the Creator. Yes they may have been viewed as "pagans" by the Christian white man but they knew the Creator better than the Christian. So the more you research the ancient beliefs whether from far away lands or nearby, they all have something in common and that is that they have knowledge of a Supreme Creator and that this Creator is unique, is unseen, etc. This can not be simply by copying from previous writings but it is because of the common source and that is Allah(swt), or by whatever other name others call Him in their languages.


>“ the laws may be similar depending on the circumstances of the time and those prophets would have told of stories that truly happened to ancient kingdoms. So if something is found somewhere and it was mentioned before, it don't neccessarily mean it was copied. But it is possible that the mostly unknown authors of the Old Testament were copying from other texts since if they were not inspired by God. By looking at the Old Testament it isn't very difficult to see for one's self that these authors could not have been inspired by God nor were those books written by Moses(as). What was given to Moses was a set of laws and they were not 10, 50, 100 but hundreds and hundreds of them. They were given for the Israelites to judge and live by. Now I know the Judeo-Christian world believes that the Old Testament is the Torah which was brought by Moses and I do not agree with that, there are pleanty of Bible scholars who say the same thing as well.”
>
>*Agreed
>
>
>“I don't know how long you been on this forum but at the beginning I wrote a great deal about that and how "Christianity" was formed and the total history of it. Maybe we can talk about it some other time, InshaAllah. If not, oh well.”
>
>*Maybe we should talk about how religion is formed and what inspires it? That will cover all religions, don’t you think?

I agree that we should talk and that is the best way to learn, find solutions and more.

>“I do not just go by what they say but I investigate it for myself. I read and study the works of Bible scholars and it is not a secret among most Bible scholars that the Old Testament is not the "Law" that was given to Moses. However, those few scholars who who receive their pay checks from the church ministers will not come out and agree with the claims or else they will have to reconsider their positions and actions.“
>
>*Bible scholars are the biggest idiots in the world that cause more confusion than anything else, just like all the other stupid scholars from Al Azhar who interpret the Quran the way they understand... Why are they wrong, you ask? Simply because the interpret it in a way that is based on pure historical perspectives which is void from true individual human experience.,, If the whole idea of religion is to link people with God, how in the world can anyone do it if their interpretation isn’t based on “individual valid experience”?

I agree that most Bible scholars are more confusing but their knowledge of the scripture definetly does not go hand in hand with the Christian beliefs. As for Al Azhar, I am not a big fan of it even though it was once a great university which produced great scholars. I like the university of Madina and my plann is to go to it soon, InshaAllah.


>
>
>>Where do you get the idea that the "jews" wrote the bible and "started" christianity? (Again, other than someone else told you)
>
>“I have a lots of information on this subject and I be more than happy to share it with you sometime, InshaAllah.”
>
>Lots of info FOR or AGAINST?... I have read more than you would think about that subject... The proof that it isn’t, is in the bible itself. NO WHERE does the bible say that the Jews wrote it... NO WHERE! So it doesn’t matter what some biased scholars say... That idea ISN’T SUPPORTED in the bible itself... Do you follow me?

Exactly, "Jews" and "Judaism" aren't even known to the so called "Torah" or the Talmud. I agree 100%.


>>Where do you get the idea that "Israelites and Jews" are one and the same people?(Other than you tv channels)
>
>“That is another thing I have mentioned on here as well and I try to be as careful as possible and detailed as possible to distinguish between "Jews" and the "Israelites" which are not one and the same. I try not to write too much but it's hard sometimes not to in order to clarify. I try my best to not even refer to Jesus(as) as a "Jew" or a Christian because both terms do not apply to him nor the other prophets. There is a misconception that "Judaism" was the religion of Moses and all the other prophets but that is not so at all.”
>
>*Agree
>
>“What we have today as the religion we have today is the Hellenized version which survived and it is referred to as "Judaism" but it is not the same way that was practiced by Jesus,”
>
>*Agreed
>
>“Moses and other prophets.”
>
>*Don’t agree.
>
> “The same goes for Christianity and Jesus Christ(as). The religion of "Christianity" was not brought by Jesus but by Paul who was at conflict with the movement of Jesus(as).“
>
>*I don’t agree. It was Rome, during the 5th century that Hijacked religion and turned it into what it has been ever since.

Yes, Rome started "Christianity" as we see today and ever since that but Paul was partially also responsible for laying down the foundations for the Romans to later come and think that it is their duty to convert people to Christ at any cost. There was never such thing as one kind of "Christian" but there were many sects in the early days. Rome declared all the others as "heretics" and got rid of them fast just as they would have done to the "Nestorians" who were able to survive and prosper because of the rise of Islam, yet others like Aprim and the rest like to believe otherwise. They must not know what Rome was doing to "heretics" but must think they were passing out cookies and milk.


>“The original followers of Jesus were none other than the Israelites who were on the correct path. They were fightinf Roman persecution and Hellenism. So those Israelites who accepted him didn't convert to nothing but did the right thing.”
>
>*Agreed
>
>“It was the group of Paul which created "Christianity" and it was the pagans and Hellenized Jews who came into the religion and not the real followers of Jesus(as). I be more than glad to share more info with you regarding this subject.”
>
>As I said before, it wasn’t Paul... Christianity as it is today, didn’t come about until AFTER the 5th century... Long after Paul was dead. Once Rome’s version of Christianity started taking over the world by force, the world ended up with the mess we have ever since...
>
>“ I am a big reader so I have lots of books.”
>
>*Good for you. That’s healthy. 
>
>>Do you know what religion was sweeping the world had more followers, untill Rome's "christianity" came about in the 5th century and screwed everything and everyone in the world?
>
>“Yes I am aware of that too, but I don't know which religion had more followers but I would love to hear that if it is not what I have in mind. So tell me please?”
>
>*It was a religion based on pure knowledge, just like the religion in mesopotamia was... It is referred to it today as “Gnosticism”. Gnosticism had its roots in Ancient Mesopotamia... Starting from Sumer...

Oh ok I was close enough. They were also declared "heretics" and annhialated by Rome. You ever heard of Paulicians,Basilidians, Corinthians, just to name a few? Yup I am sure you have and I know you know where they went. They too called themselves "Christians" and labeled others as "heretics" but Rome took over because they grew and after Constantine converted everything went their way.

It was a pleasure talking to you and maybe we'll talk again, InshaAllah.



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