The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: One more, pancho.

Re: One more, pancho.
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Saturday, April 28 2012, 17:09:51 (UTC)
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Fareed wrote:
>pancho,
>
>It is interesting how much value you given to the work of a historian scholar, and any scholar for that matter. You seem to think that what they say is final.

Not at all...but it isn´t one man, one historian...it is his book, certainly, but in it there are quotes from the writings of Arnold Toynbee, Edward Gibbon, HWF Saggs, W.T. Pitard, George Roux, Sidney Smith, Helms, Herodotus....to name a few...plus officials of the Archbishop of Canterburry...plus assorted people there at the time, including Layard and Rassam...I´ll admit he doesn´t use aina or ankawa or christiansofiraq as sources....because they aren´t, except for nonsense and propaganda.....this is a very esoteric field with not many professional historians interested or aware, which is why Dr Joseph´s research is so critical, because he is OF this deluded community AND botherd to get an actual education about it...and, his college and students and peers, as well as the State Department, recognize him as such...how many of us do you know of who´ve had a college building named after them? Especially considering that Joseph didn´t pay for it, but a former student did? And all of this to you is "nothing"? And YOU have "pride" in your people???
>
>You may be aware of the fact that history, as a science, is not a precise science. It is only an INTERPRETATION of information.

...yes, but it depends where you GET that information from, and who does the INTERPRETING. What you´re really saying is that this is all just OPINION..and why isn´t your opinion as good as Joseph´s...would you also say your opinions of particle physics should be placed next to Einsteins? Well, you would, if Einstein was assyrian!!!

The only two sciences that are precise are Mathematics and, to a degree Physics. So, for anyone to insist that a historian knows it all is, without a doubt, FALSE.

...no one said "all" or "without a doub"t...we´re saying read the fucking book and REFUTE it, but not with YOUR opinions or ainas...after all Jóseph isn´t giving us HIS opinions but the STATEMENTS of respected and known historians...you can do the same for your side...where are they? What do you have besides Abgar, aina, Aprim and what else?

..see, because all you péople ever do is give opinions, without bothering to know much, except what you hear in church or from family and then only if it pleases you, you actually think historians and experts and Joseph are doing to SAME! They are not....silly.
>
>
>You may also be aware of the fact that, to study the origin of people, you need Anthropology. Anthropology is a more accurate science than history, for the origin of people.

...fine...go and bring them to us. Joseph is using FACTS as written down by the few historians who are actually and professionaly aware of this field...it´s all there in the historical record...no need to get fancy of overheated...there is clear evidence that Chaldeans were named first, not Assyrians, and that the Catholics did it...even Aprim knows that..it is also shown how next the Nestorian Chaldeans were called Assyrians...there is no need for DNA or anthropoligy in discussing when these NAMES appeared, because the Assyrians did not appear WITH THEM...they had disappeared long ago, as we are warned not to forget our Aramaic or else we will lose our IDENTITY..that´s what happened to the ancients...sure their geneitc material survived and mixed and anthropolgists and geneologists and semanticists and beauticians can study THAT...but the sudden appearance of both the Chaldean name and the Assyrian name, in MODERN HISTORY, is the proper field of study of an expert in Modern Middle Eastern HISTORY...let the anthropologists do what they like with genes and blood, Dr Joseph is focused on the NAMES, genes are irrelevent to the appearance, in modern history, of the NAMES.

..Joseph is discussing the suddden and modern appearnace of these NAMES, Chaldean and Assyrian, in modern history...and they appeared in the modern Midddle East, of which he is a recognized historian and Parpola and Fyre are not: He is not refuting or examinaing or concerned with the GENES of the people who CALL themelves by these names, but the modern derivation OF these names. Okay?
>
>So, is Dr. Joseph an Anthropologist? And if you accept his INTERPRETATION of the information he chose to work with for his book, why not accept those who are Assyriologists? Why not confer with a Gene's expert?

He has sections where he gives his interpretation...but mostly he uses sources, historical sources which show how these names were INVENTED..he is giving us the HISTORY of the APPEARANCE of those NAMES...he has no business with the genes of the people of the Middle East...he didn´t CHOOSE the information...it is THE information known to scholars....assyrioogists are expert in ancient Assyrian history, not modern...I would not go to an expert in early European history to learn about France in 2012...I would go to an expert in THAT tme and place...and genes have nothing to do with it....a geneticist nor an assyriologist could get a job teaching modern middle eastern hsitory in a college...it is not his area of expertise...Joseph would never think of "interpreting" ancient Assyrian history.
>
>You say that Assyrians are Nestorians, as INTERPRETED by Dr. Joseph.

...no, as the historical record shows...obviously you haven´t read the book...no wonder you are a champion for everyone´s OPINION.

But what were those Nestorians before they were called that?

..they were members of the Eastern Christian Church, to set them off from the Western, Roman, Church.

Who were they?

...they were the many ethnic groups in that region who survived the fall of the Assyrian empire and then got mixed and matched with the all the different people who conquereed or settled in that region...who all came under the umbrella of the universal Catholic Christian Church, eastern branch.

Where did they originate from?

...the entire MidEast which coverted to Christianity...before that they were heavily influenced by the Aramean culture, as we have become by Americn and European culture, hence losing OUR identity as you can hear our parents bewailing the fact when we, in our turn are LOSING OUR MOTHER TONGUE...just like the ancient Assyrians "disappeared".


Were any of them Assyrians in origin, and directly linked to the Assyrians before them?

...sure. No one says they all disappeared off the face of the earth...they were as much "assyrian", however, as those of our community who moved to Chicago 100 years ago and forgot our language and coudn´t tell you a thing about Assyrians today...their genes may still be what they originally were...but there is no self-identification as assyrians any longer and not for a long time...which is exactly what happened to the ancients.

And if only 100, or none, of them were Assyrians in origin, what citations is there to prove or disprove that. Or more precisely, what “interpretation” is there? Do you really need an expert "opinion" to work through this logically?

..the trouble with logic, as our people use it, is that it only seems logical so long as you don´t know very much...with three facts to your head it´s easy to use them "logically"...but with the writings and teachings of 300 expert historians...it becomes more a challenge to remain "logical"...you discard all that is known, and , using what your parents told you, come to a "logical" conclusion that Mom and Dad were right.

..no one, absolutely no one, except us, has ever said Assyrians were physically wiped off the face of the earth...no one. Roux explians the difference in adopting Aramaic between Persians and Assyrians..the Persians didin´t forget their mother tongue, the way Assyrians did...also, when the Arabs conquered them and brought the Arabic language to bear, the Persians STILL kept their identity, even though they adopted Arabic, they Persianized it to their use...Assyrians didn´t do that...the question isn´t "did any Assyrians survive" (although there was no such thing as a pure Assyrian even back then) the question is can this Christian sect all of a sudden claim to have always been Assyrians...and ONLY Christians allowed...where is the logic in that?
>
>I believe that you should talk to Dr. Joseph more.

..he is past 90, tired and busy...I have talked to him...in fact he is married to a cousin and he reminded me a while back that he and I had a conversation when I was starting the Ashurbanipal monument back in 1982...he tried, gently, to enlighten me but I was full of myself as a HERO, descended from Ashurbanipal...so he says he let it go, as it would have been cruel to burst my bubble and determination to build an Assyrian monument...we have communicated by email and he has said nothing that changes anything.

I believe that out of respect for himself and his education, he will give you an honest answer. Ask him if he is certain beyond any doubt that his interpretation on Assyrians cannot ever be proven wrong in the future by scholars.

..it is not his interpretation...you keep saying that and I can understand why...because all your "knowledge" is based on how YOU have "interpreted" this supposed history...Jospehs writing wouldn´t have been published by Princeton University and Brill if they were just his OPINIONS...no academic or scholar can get away with that...they my ADD their conclusions, but only at the end of a string of citations which can be verified showing WHERE they got their interpretation from....that is the world of academic scholarship...that is how you get a PhD and get hired to teach at universitis...you don´t get there by having OPINIONS...that is how aina and ankawa and others work...not accredited historians.
>
>It is ironic that while you encourage others to “think for themselves”, you insist that they can only be right if they read Dr. Joseph’s book.

...I say that by first reading his book,they will understand the basis for his conclusions and become familiar with his sources..and then they will be in a better psoition to assess the subject..and also to bring their own sources, and not just their opinions, to refute Dr Joseph...do it! By all means, don´t just try to weaken Joseph´s position, and that of all his sources...bring your OWN sources and shoot him down...please!

And if someone suggests to you to read an Expert’s opinion about Religion, for example, you instantly say they are wrong. And an expert opinion is not expert to you in such subjects.

...I accept an expert in the Voodoo religion as just that...an expert in HIS religion...but I don´t accept him as an historian of anything else, OR accept his moral or religious teachings...I can accept an expert on the history of the belief that the world is flat, without accepting that it is.
>
>With all due respect, pancho. I think you are a Narcissist who is trying very hard to defeat other Narcissists. Else, you would not be so passionate about your own OPINIONS like those Assyrian and Religious Fanatics you despise.

...these are not my opinions...I USED to hold the same opinions you do before...when I needed no expert to tell me WHO I AM. You also have to factor in how much heat Joseph has taken for his study and books...he has received death threats and been insulted to his face...a Narcissist?...I think not.

..you are claiming to be the direct descendant of Ashurbanipal and Sargon II and Tiglathpilessar while I say "nonsense"...and I am the NARCISSIST....ME?

...I WAS a Narcissist when I thought I was descended from Ashurbanipal...people tried to make a Narcissit out of me when they told me I was the "greatest Assyrian sculptor we ever had" and I had to remind them I was the ONLY assyrian sculptor they had. Obviously you don´t know me, or who you are. I´m the fool who now has a bogus "history" of the assyrian peepil on his fucking MONUMENT, out there, in public, with his name on it..who now says I was wrong...some Narcissit.
>
>Other than that, I wish you well.

...and I you.
>
>
>Thank You.

..always welcome



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